Christian Pipe Smokers

Any of you enlightened minds run into this theological turd?

Not sure who thinks egalitarianism is a theological system or framework.

What is "egalitarianism" as a theology? Can anyone define this for me?

I don't want a treatise of wosbaldian prose. Just the big idea, please.

Del wrote: 22 Oct 2023, 15:32 What is "egalitarianism" as a theology? Can anyone define this for me?

I don't want a treatise of wosbaldian prose. Just the big idea, please.

It's the issue of gender roles that has oozed into the church like a bad fart. i.e. men & women are equal in role and ability in the church.

Biff wrote: 22 Oct 2023, 22:06

Del wrote: 22 Oct 2023, 15:32 What is "egalitarianism" as a theology? Can anyone define this for me?

It's the issue of gender roles that has oozed into the church like a bad fart. i.e. men & women are equal in role and ability in the church.

Ah.... this is a new name, but not a new idea.

Methodists, Episcopalians, and Anglicans believe (or at least they used to believe) that they have Apostolic bishops and a biblical priesthood.

Even so, Methodists were ordaining a few women in the 1880's. By the 1950, this was accepted as general practice.
Episcopalians ordained their first priestesses in the 1970's.
Anglicans ordained women priestesses in 1994.

This caused a general upheaval in their respective denominations, altering their understanding of God the Father and God the Son, of their Church and their Sacraments, and their believers' relationships with those divine things.

Apostolic Faith is that Jesus revealed Himself to us as a "man." He taught us to call God "Our Father." For this reason, ordained ministers who act in Persona Christi in the Sacraments are men, just as the Jewish priests were all men. Priestesses were for pagan goddesses, not Jews and Christians.
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I can't say this without sounding like a jerk, so I'm going to say it and sound like a jerk: The North American Evangelical theology of denominational leadership is so far from the biblical model that I can't even explain it, much less dispute it with honesty and nuance.

From where I stand, I don't see anything happening in a Protestant denomination or nondenomination community that a woman can't do.
- A woman can teach and preach from the Bible. We have women as professors in Catholic seminaries, forming our future priests.
- A woman can lead music. Music appears to be at the center of Evangelical worship, so much so that the music leader is often titled as "Worship Leader."
- A woman can sit on a board that administers the community's assets and finances, etc.

All the same, the Bible Christians do want to follow the Bible -- however they understand it. This is a noble sentiment. And the Bible reflects human nature clearly enough: Men and women have different gifts and charisms.

Attempting to rank these gifts is a foolish endeavor. Especially in a faith which regards the humblest service as the highest good, and warns that those with the most power and responsibility will be judged the most harshly! I'll smack anybody who dares to say that "men do all the great stuff" and "women do the second-rate stuff."

Modern feminism denies that women have any unique and worthy gifts. Feminists insist that only men do anything important, and women were "oppressed" in their traditional roles of giving life, forming children, and keeping homes for their families. Feminists insist that women should rather go do everything that men do, which is fast leading to the erasure of womanhood as a specific genius.
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I am curious to learn more about how feminist ideology is attacking all that is properly feminine in the Church, as anyone sees it.

Biff wrote: 22 Oct 2023, 22:06

Del wrote: 22 Oct 2023, 15:32 What is "egalitarianism" as a theology? Can anyone define this for me?

I don't want a treatise of wosbaldian prose. Just the big idea, please.

It's the issue of gender roles that has oozed into the church like a bad fart. i.e. men & women are equal in role and ability in the church.

This is soooo 1990's. Binaries are for losers. Today's issue is having all 108 genders in the pastorate. That's what the cool kids do.

Del wrote: 23 Oct 2023, 10:35

Biff wrote: 22 Oct 2023, 22:06

Del wrote: 22 Oct 2023, 15:32 What is "egalitarianism" as a theology? Can anyone define this for me?

It's the issue of gender roles that has oozed into the church like a bad fart. i.e. men & women are equal in role and ability in the church.

Ah.... this is a new name, but not a new idea.

Methodists, Episcopalians, and Anglicans believe (or at least they used to believe) that they have Apostolic bishops and a biblical priesthood.

Even so, Methodists were ordaining a few women in the 1880's. By the 1950, this was accepted as general practice.
Episcopalians ordained their first priestesses in the 1970's.
Anglicans ordained women priestesses in 1994.

This caused a general upheaval in their respective denominations, altering their understanding of God the Father and God the Son, of their Church and their Sacraments, and their believers' relationships with those divine things.

Apostolic Faith is that Jesus revealed Himself to us as a "man." He taught us to call God "Our Father." For this reason, ordained ministers who act in Persona Christi in the Sacraments are men, just as the Jewish priests were all men. Priestesses were for pagan goddesses, not Jews and Christians.
===========================

I can't say this without sounding like a jerk, so I'm going to say it and sound like a jerk: The North American Evangelical theology of denominational leadership is so far from the biblical model that I can't even explain it, much less dispute it with honesty and nuance.

From where I stand, I don't see anything happening in a Protestant denomination or nondenomination community that a woman can't do.
- A woman can teach and preach from the Bible. We have women as professors in Catholic seminaries, forming our future priests.
- A woman can lead music. Music appears to be at the center of Evangelical worship, so much so that the music leader is often titled as "Worship Leader."
- A woman can sit on a board that administers the community's assets and finances, etc.

On two major points the above is wrong:

1. Men are appointed pastoral leadership roles in the church not because of an interpretation of Christ’s manhood but the Apostle Paul explicitly stated in God’s Word that women should be silent in the church. It’s a very explicit written direction in the Bible.

1 Corinthians 14:33-34

[33] For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.
As in all the churches of the saints, [34] the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.

That, being so explicit, it is the primary template for gender in Worship. Much can come from interpretation, but it would be secondary to the above.

2. Your understanding of Protestantism as stated above is false. Just wrong. You speak of only the liberal aspects/denominations of Protestantism however there is a large conservative set of churches/denominations as well and some make the Catholic church look liberal (e.g. Catholic alter girls, women reading the Bible from the pulpit during service, and women distributing communion). I know you have ways of justifying such things in your thinking to remain a good Catholic, and I’m not challenging that, but it remains that alter girls, women reading the Bible from the pulpit during service, and women distributing communion all look very liberal and unbiblical in comparison to Apostolic Protestant Worship.

ChildOfGod wrote: 27 Oct 2023, 02:56

Del wrote: 23 Oct 2023, 10:35

Biff wrote: 22 Oct 2023, 22:06

It's the issue of gender roles that has oozed into the church like a bad fart. i.e. men & women are equal in role and ability in the church.

Ah.... this is a new name, but not a new idea.

Methodists, Episcopalians, and Anglicans believe (or at least they used to believe) that they have Apostolic bishops and a biblical priesthood.

Even so, Methodists were ordaining a few women in the 1880's. By the 1950, this was accepted as general practice.
Episcopalians ordained their first priestesses in the 1970's.
Anglicans ordained women priestesses in 1994.

This caused a general upheaval in their respective denominations, altering their understanding of God the Father and God the Son, of their Church and their Sacraments, and their believers' relationships with those divine things.

Apostolic Faith is that Jesus revealed Himself to us as a "man." He taught us to call God "Our Father." For this reason, ordained ministers who act in Persona Christi in the Sacraments are men, just as the Jewish priests were all men. Priestesses were for pagan goddesses, not Jews and Christians.
===========================

I can't say this without sounding like a jerk, so I'm going to say it and sound like a jerk: The North American Evangelical theology of denominational leadership is so far from the biblical model that I can't even explain it, much less dispute it with honesty and nuance.

From where I stand, I don't see anything happening in a Protestant denomination or nondenomination community that a woman can't do.
- A woman can teach and preach from the Bible. We have women as professors in Catholic seminaries, forming our future priests.
- A woman can lead music. Music appears to be at the center of Evangelical worship, so much so that the music leader is often titled as "Worship Leader."
- A woman can sit on a board that administers the community's assets and finances, etc.

On two major points the above is wrong:

1. Men are appointed pastoral leadership roles in the church not because of an interpretation of Christ’s manhood but the Apostle Paul explicitly stated in God’s Word that women should be silent in the church. It’s a very explicit written direction in the Bible.

1 Corinthians 14:33-34

[33] For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.
As in all the churches of the saints, [34] the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.

That, being so explicit, it is the primary template for gender in Worship. Much can come from interpretation, but it would be secondary to the above.

2. Your understanding of Protestantism as stated above is false. Just wrong. You speak of only the liberal aspects/denominations of Protestantism however there is a large conservative set of churches/denominations as well and some make the Catholic church look liberal (e.g. Catholic alter girls, women reading the Bible from the pulpit during service, and women distributing communion). I know you have ways of justifying such things in your thinking to remain a good Catholic, and I’m not challenging that, but it remains that alter girls, women reading the Bible from the pulpit during service, and women distributing communion all look very liberal and unbiblical in comparison to Apostolic Protestant Worship.

Thanks.... but not "wrong." It's just another case where the views cleave between Catholic and Protestant.

But first, a pet peeve. It's ALTAR. Biblical worship for Old Testament Jews and Apostolic Christians happens at an altar of sacrifice. (Modern Jews will restore sacrificial worship at an altar too, if they can ever get their Temple back.)

Alter is a verb. It means to change something. The Calvinist tradition altered the Apostolic faith and discipline, when they rejected the faith that Christ comes to His altar to offer Himself -- His Body, Blood, human soul and Divinity -- for us to receive for our salvation. They rejected the Apostolic Faith for something they call "biblical faith." This is historical fact, which neither side disputes.

I am acutely aware of the discipline that St. Paul described. Disciplines can change with the times, without altering the underlying faith. [For example, the early discipline for the confession and forgiveness of sins involved a public confession and public penance. As a result, believers would postpone baptism until they were near death. Rather quickly in the early Church, the discipline changed to a private sacramental confession. We want believers to receive the Sacraments early and often.]

Anyhow, the Anglicans of the 1980's and '90's, still desiring to be respected as part of the Apostolic Church (i.e., not "Protestant"), asked Pope St. John Paul II about their consideration of St. Paul's discipline in regard to the ordination of Anglican women priests. After all, Catholics have altar girls and women who read Scripture at Mass, right?

In Ordinatio sacerdotalis (1994), JPII answered that we must have a male-only priesthood, but not because of St. Paul's stated discipline. We have a male priesthood because Yahweh, Moses, Jesus, and the Apostles instituted a male priesthood -- and the Church has no authority to change this institution.
======================

All this is to say that I gave a Catholic answer to the question.

It's to be expected that Protestants and "bible Christians" have different answers, and I'm okay with that.

Del wrote: 27 Oct 2023, 07:55

ChildOfGod wrote: 27 Oct 2023, 02:56

Del wrote: 23 Oct 2023, 10:35

Ah.... this is a new name, but not a new idea.

Methodists, Episcopalians, and Anglicans believe (or at least they used to believe) that they have Apostolic bishops and a biblical priesthood.

Even so, Methodists were ordaining a few women in the 1880's. By the 1950, this was accepted as general practice.
Episcopalians ordained their first priestesses in the 1970's.
Anglicans ordained women priestesses in 1994.

This caused a general upheaval in their respective denominations, altering their understanding of God the Father and God the Son, of their Church and their Sacraments, and their believers' relationships with those divine things.

Apostolic Faith is that Jesus revealed Himself to us as a "man." He taught us to call God "Our Father." For this reason, ordained ministers who act in Persona Christi in the Sacraments are men, just as the Jewish priests were all men. Priestesses were for pagan goddesses, not Jews and Christians.
===========================

I can't say this without sounding like a jerk, so I'm going to say it and sound like a jerk: The North American Evangelical theology of denominational leadership is so far from the biblical model that I can't even explain it, much less dispute it with honesty and nuance.

From where I stand, I don't see anything happening in a Protestant denomination or nondenomination community that a woman can't do.
- A woman can teach and preach from the Bible. We have women as professors in Catholic seminaries, forming our future priests.
- A woman can lead music. Music appears to be at the center of Evangelical worship, so much so that the music leader is often titled as "Worship Leader."
- A woman can sit on a board that administers the community's assets and finances, etc.

On two major points the above is wrong:

1. Men are appointed pastoral leadership roles in the church not because of an interpretation of Christ’s manhood but the Apostle Paul explicitly stated in God’s Word that women should be silent in the church. It’s a very explicit written direction in the Bible.

1 Corinthians 14:33-34

[33] For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.
As in all the churches of the saints, [34] the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.

That, being so explicit, it is the primary template for gender in Worship. Much can come from interpretation, but it would be secondary to the above.

2. Your understanding of Protestantism as stated above is false. Just wrong. You speak of only the liberal aspects/denominations of Protestantism however there is a large conservative set of churches/denominations as well and some make the Catholic church look liberal (e.g. Catholic alter girls, women reading the Bible from the pulpit during service, and women distributing communion). I know you have ways of justifying such things in your thinking to remain a good Catholic, and I’m not challenging that, but it remains that alter girls, women reading the Bible from the pulpit during service, and women distributing communion all look very liberal and unbiblical in comparison to Apostolic Protestant Worship.

Thanks.... but not "wrong." It's just another case where the views cleave between Catholic and Protestant.

Seriously… you were totally wrong in saying, “The North American Evangelical theology of denominational leadership is so far from the biblical model.”

That statement is wrong, and can only be made from a place of ignorance. What do you know of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church? Most likely you haven’t heard if it. It’s only one example of a church far superior to others (and I mean out of all) in adherence to the Apostolic faith as recorded by the Apostles in the Bible.

If you amend that statement to, “Most of Christendom is so far from the biblical model..” I would agree. Your faction is not excluded. Most of Christendom (Cath/Prot/whatever) has departed from the Apostolic faith in many ways but certainly from 1 Corinthians 14:33-34. I think that may serve, today, as a good baseline litmus test for “Apostolic”. If a church doesn’t adhere to that, one couldn’t allow it to be called Apostolic in conversation, just because… facts.

ChildOfGod wrote: 27 Oct 2023, 10:37

Del wrote: 27 Oct 2023, 07:55

ChildOfGod wrote: 27 Oct 2023, 02:56

On two major points the above is wrong:

1. Men are appointed pastoral leadership roles in the church not because of an interpretation of Christ’s manhood but the Apostle Paul explicitly stated in God’s Word that women should be silent in the church. It’s a very explicit written direction in the Bible.

1 Corinthians 14:33-34

[33] For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.
As in all the churches of the saints, [34] the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.

That, being so explicit, it is the primary template for gender in Worship. Much can come from interpretation, but it would be secondary to the above.

2. Your understanding of Protestantism as stated above is false. Just wrong. You speak of only the liberal aspects/denominations of Protestantism however there is a large conservative set of churches/denominations as well and some make the Catholic church look liberal (e.g. Catholic alter girls, women reading the Bible from the pulpit during service, and women distributing communion). I know you have ways of justifying such things in your thinking to remain a good Catholic, and I’m not challenging that, but it remains that alter girls, women reading the Bible from the pulpit during service, and women distributing communion all look very liberal and unbiblical in comparison to Apostolic Protestant Worship.

Thanks.... but not "wrong." It's just another case where the views cleave between Catholic and Protestant.

Seriously… you were totally wrong in saying, “The North American Evangelical theology of denominational leadership is so far from the biblical model.”

That statement is wrong, and can only be made from a place of ignorance. What do you know of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church? Most likely you haven’t heard if it. It’s only one example of a church far superior to others (and I mean out of all) in adherence to the Apostolic faith as recorded by the Apostles in the Bible.

If you amend that statement to, “Most of Christendom is so far from the biblical model..” I would agree. Your faction is not excluded. Most of Christendom (Cath/Prot/whatever) has departed from the Apostolic faith in many ways but certainly from 1 Corinthians 14:33-34. I think that may serve, today, as a good baseline litmus test for “Apostolic”. If a church doesn’t adhere to that, one couldn’t allow it to be called Apostolic in conversation, just because… facts.

Orthodox Presbyterian Church

Wikipedia wrote:The Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC) is a confessional Presbyterian denomination located primarily in the United States, with additional congregations in Canada, Bermuda, and Puerto Rico. It was founded by conservative members of the Presbyterian Church in the United States of America (PCUSA), who objected to the rise of Liberal and Modernist theology in the 1930s. The OPC is considered to have had an influence on evangelicalism far beyond its size.

Dude.... The Apostolic Churches (Catholic and Orthodox) were founded by the Apostles. A modern denomination can't be an "Apostolic Church" without this connection to history.

The Apostolic Church has great reverence for our Sacred Scripture, but we do not believe that our Church is built upon that Scripture. We believe that our Scripture was written for people who have already been formed in the teachings of the Apostles. We insist that the Church has the authority to correct people when they are interpreting the Scripture wrongly. This is how the Holy Spirit guides us, and it works. This is why the western Catholic and the various Orthodox Churches are still so fundamentally similar in our faith, even after 1000 years of schism. We have known Christ for 2000 years.

And the vital one, the sine qua non, of Apostolic Faith is that Jesus Christ comes to His altar during our worship, giving us His risen Body, Blood, human soul and Divinity for us to receive Him as our Savior, at the hands of His priest.

That said, Apostolic Christians appreciate the good works of faithful American Evangelicals who hold faithfully to Christ by following as best they can the Sacred Books that the Apostolic Church wrote, selected, preserves, and shares with the Christian world. I am thankful to learn of the Orthodox Presbyterian branch and its influence upon American Evangelicals. All credit to the Holy Spirit.
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I also disagree with "altar girls." We should never have permitted that.

In our diocese, several pastors have re-instituted the custom boys-only altar boys. In three parishes that I am familiar with, they don't even bother to "schedule" for altar boys. Typically a dozen or so boys show up, all volunteering to serve. They all vest in cassocks, and the older ones guide the young ones in serving at the Liturgy. It is a beautiful thing to see. One of the first boys is now a priest in our own parish.

St. Paul was right, all along. Once we let women take over the roles of men, the men tend to fade into the bushes. It turns out that men are intrinsically lazy. There's some biblical wisdom for us!