Prayerfully Considering Swimming the Tiber

[joegoat]

I debated on putting this in prayer requests because this is ultimately a prayer request, but I wouldn't mind some advice as well and the subject is bound to attract theological debate.
I don't know how many of you know my background so here's the quickest rundown I can give.
I grew up in a Baptist church (northern variety). I went to a "non denominational" christian school K though 12. One could consider them very conservative northern baptist though. They were firmly aligned with Bob Jones University.
My junior and senior year of high school I spent a great deal of time in meditation about Christianity and the extreme range of churches that all said they were really what Christianity was supposed to be. I never questioned my faith. I just questioned what post reformation Christianity has become over the past 500 years. I wanted to worship in a manner that was pleasing to God.
My Senior year of high school is when I picked up the pipe and found CPS. It's probably because the of the men who's books I was reading at the time.
By the time I moved out of the house at 20, I had decided I was moving toward Orthodox, but I landed on The Anglican Church of North America (ACNA). They're essentially a reformed Episcopal. They formed when the Episcopalians started going off the liberal deep end.
I fell in love with worship in a liturgy. Celebrating Holy Communion at every service and the reverence around Holy Communion is something that has left a lasting impression on me. The ACNA theology isn't "transubstantiation," but I believe in the true presence.
I attended Holy Trinity for almost five years until I met my wife and moved to Ohio. I, by default, went to the church my fiancee and her mom were going to. Suffice it to say, I was not interested. I picked up on some things very early on and talked to my fiancee about it. At first she thought it was just because it was a new church to me and different. I kept attending and still felt the same way. We were married by the pastor of that church a few months later and within a couple months after our wedding my wife came to me and said I had been right about that church so we left and I convinced her to go to an Anglican church with me. She loved it. She found the beauty in the liturgy as I did. After a couple years we had to stop going because my shift at work changed.
There were several months of trying to find a new church and my wife made it abundantly clear that she wanted something modern. She wanted young families and a youth group. She wanted a band and a stage. She wanted a preacher center stage after the band was done. Our preferences were so different. After she made it clear that she didn't want to go to anything traditional, I eventually said we're going to a church together, as a family. I'm going to be open minded. We ultimately ended up going to a "nondenom" place two minutes up the road.
I white knuckled through fog machines, flashing lights, loud music, and struggled to read my bible in the darkened auditorium as the only lights shone on the preacher.
A couple months ago I told her that we were going to continue to attend the current place as a family, but I was going to begin attending a Roman Catholic mass every Sunday as well.
I wasn't looking at converting to Roman Catholicism, I find that my theology closely matches Eastern Orthodox, but I can't attend the Eastern Orthodox as well as the current family church.
Relevant Radio (Catholic radio) just came into our area last fall and it is all I have in in my car now. I'm not 100% onboard with the dogmas of Rome, but more of them have begun to make sense. I can't say I'm ready to swim the Tiber, but I have both feet in the water and I'm praying about it.
The hardest thing is that my wife is a long way off. She has stated that she will never attend a Roman Catholic mass and considers Catholics fake and theirs worship to be empty. She still has the anti-Catholic mindset that I was raised with. I was able to kick mine in highschool though.
Sorry for the long story. I covet your prayers and your advice.

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

If ya wanna swim the Tiber but are attached to Eastern modes of Catholic life, maybe start at a non-Roman Rite Catholic parish? Maronite or Byzantine or Ukrainian or Melkite or sumptin?

It would prolly be more inconvenient than going the Latin Church route, but it's an option.

[Del]

Hey, Joe!

Just wondering if you are still hanging out with bdaily? Because, you know....

The appearance of Relevant Radio in our area, back around 2000, was a big part in helping me to advance from a common, complacent Catholic to something more complete. So it was something hilarious to be sitting at smoking table with you and Bigwill and Jeff Cavins at the Chicago Pipe Show!

GK Chesterton stood with his toes in the Tiber for years as he wavered between his wife and his heart's faith. I don't know if this helps or not, but it's a truth.

[joegoat]

+JMJ+

If ya wanna swim the Tiber but are attached to Eastern modes of Catholic life, maybe start at a non-Roman Rite Catholic parish? Maronite or Byzantine or Ukrainian or Melkite or sumptin?

It would prolly be more inconvenient than going the Latin Church route, but it's an option.

I hate to sound this way, but the reason I'm attending a Roman parish is convenience. In order to make attendance as a family somewhere work, the times have to be staggered enough. I don't have enough time to drive to Dayton or Cincinnati where the Eastern churches are located.
Being out in the sticks kinda limits you to the basic options.

[joegoat]

Hey, Joe!

Just wondering if you are still hanging out with bdaily? Because, you know....

The appearance of Relevant Radio in our area, back around 2000, was a big part in helping me to advance from a common, complacent Catholic to something more complete. So it was something hilarious to be sitting at smoking table with you and Bigwill and Jeff Cavins at the Chicago Pipe Show!

GK Chesterton stood with his toes in the Tiber for years as he wavered between his wife and his heart's faith. I don't know if this helps or not, but it's a truth.

He's been a contributing factor in this. Haha I was a contributing factor in his move toward Orthodoxy. He started going to an Anglican church shortly after me.
He took me to my first "Roman Catholic Mass." It's in quotes because it was an Ordinariate Mass that closely resembles the Anglican liturgy, but the church theology matches Rome and they have communion with Rome. The Priest being married is one area that it's different. Those parishes are not common. We had to go to Louisville.
It was a high church smells and bells mass and absolutely gorgeous! The priest chanted the entirety of it and yes, he was quite gifted at chanting.
Relevant Radio has been an enormous blessing and it came along at a time that I was really missing worship in a liturgy and receiving Holy Communion where it was more than a memorial meal done once a month. The content is so much more growth promoting than the other Christian stations that play almost nothing, but music and an occasional sermon.
Relevant Radio is a big reason that I'm standing in the Tiber.

[Del]

He's been a contributing factor in this. Haha I was a contributing factor in his move toward Orthodoxy. He started going to an Anglican church shortly after me.
He took me to my first "Roman Catholic Mass." It's in quotes because it was an Ordinariate Mass that closely resembles the Anglican liturgy, but the church theology matches Rome and they have communion with Rome. The Priest being married is one area that it's different. Those parishes are not common. We had to go to Louisville.
It was a high church smells and bells mass and absolutely gorgeous! The priest chanted the entirety of it and yes, he was quite gifted at chanting.
Relevant Radio has been an enormous blessing and it came along at a time that I was really missing worship in a liturgy and receiving Holy Communion where it was more than a memorial meal done once a month. The content is so much more growth promoting than the other Christian stations that play almost nothing, but music and an occasional sermon.
Relevant Radio is a big reason that I'm standing in the Tiber.

You are taken the jolly and exotic way around to the Apostolic Church, aren't you! GK Chesterton says that the Catholic Church is a castle with a thousand doors, and no one enters from quite the same direction.

Just a point of order here... which you will likely appreciate, as a Relevant Radio listener. Read the following with the voice of Patrick Madrid or Fr. Simon in your head (your choice):

There are lots of Churches in Communion with Rome; they all have the same Pope. They are all called "The Catholic Church." The largest group, by far, are those who worship according to the Roman Rite. (There are actually two rites in the Roman Rite, the Traditional Latin Mass and the Novus Ordo Mass which is also in Latin, but it is translated into the vernacular languages in each region. But that's another story...).

There are other rites of worship besides the Roman Rite. There's the Anglican Ordinariate Rite. There's the various Eastern Rites who are like their Orthodox brethren in how they worship, yet they are in communion with Rome. Wosbald offered a partial list.... "Maronite or Byzantine or Ukrainian or Melkite"

The non-Roman rites enjoy a degree of independence from the Roman Rite. The Catholic Churches all share the same theology, but the non-Roman rites have their own canon law, for example. Thus they can ordain married men to the priesthood, if they choose to, under their own rules. The Roman Rite does not generally do so (with some specific exceptions).

But we are all in this together, all the same. I have a retired Roman priest friend who has faculties (permission) to celebrate the Ruthenian Rite Liturgy (Byzantine) for a community near his winter home down South somewhere.

All this is to say that bdaily did not take you to a Roman Catholic Mass. He took you to an Anglican Ordinariate Mass. And you experienced there all the goodness, truth, and beauty that Jesus established in His Church. Jesus came to His altar and shared His Flesh and Blood.

All of this is also available in the Orthodox Churches, which are not in communion with Rome. But they are descended from the Apostles, and still teach the Apostolic faith.... in spite of 1000 years of separation. When Jesus built a Church, He built it to last. (He was a carpenter, after all. And He was God, so He got it right the first time!)

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

I hate to sound this way, but the reason I'm attending a Roman parish is convenience. In order to make attendance as a family somewhere work, the times have to be staggered enough. I don't have enough time to drive to Dayton or Cincinnati where the Eastern churches are located.
Being out in the sticks kinda limits you to the basic options.

What about — and I'm just spitballin' here, cuz I dunno exactly how you'd go about doin' this — entering the Church through an Eastern RIte, but attending a Roman Rite outta convenience most of the time? Then, you'd be subject to the jurisdiction of, for example, the local Melkite bishop, but you'd only attend your actual registered Melkite parish (your "home base") when circumstances permit — the rest of the time attending the most convenient Roman Rite as a visitor?

I'm sure that there's a goodly number of Eastern Catholics livin' in the boonies who do something just like this.

Like I said, just spitballin'.

[FredS]

Seems to me that having one foot in and one foot out is not a viable long-term solution. It won't be good for the church, your spiritual maturation, or your family. At the root, there are some basic, and major, differences between where you'll be and where your family will be and the day will come when the differences may be irreconcilable. Then what? This seems pretty important to you - will you or your wife be able to compromise when that day comes? Will you both just try to ignore it? Will you try to twist one or both beliefs so they fit some bastardized worldview? You're right to pray on this and you're right to ask your friends to pray on this.

I'm taking this verse out of context but it sort of explains what I would be worried about:
Matthew 6:24 NIV
24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money."

[joegoat]

Seems to me that having one foot in and one foot out is not a viable long-term solution. It won't be good for the church, your spiritual maturation, or your family. At the root, there are some basic, and major, differences between where you'll be and where your family will be and the day will come when the differences may be irreconcilable. Then what? This seems pretty important to you - will you or your wife be able to compromise when that day comes? Will you both just try to ignore it? Will you try to twist one or both beliefs so they fit some bastardized worldview? You're right to pray on this and you're right to ask your friends to pray on this.

I'm taking this verse out of context but it sort of explains what I would be worried about:
Matthew 6:24 NIV
24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money."

At this point we've promised each other, for lack of a better phrase, that we're not going to try to convert each other. We're not going to let our theological differences be a point of contention in our marriage. She said she's glad I'm not dabbling in Hindu or something. At least we're serving the same God. It will be tough at times. I foresee that.

[sweetandsour]

Best wishes, Joe, and prayers your way for you and your wife, and family. All I can say is that it's good for a family to be of one faith, in my way of thinking. And later on it's important for kids and teens to attend where they have good kid and teen groups.